Interview by Nicolas Rapold

原文刊载于《Film Comment》2018年2月21日网页版（https://www.filmcomment.com/blog/interview-ildiko-enyedi/）

这部电影的灵感从何而来？

这都源自一些非常基本的感受。记得那是在三月初，早春，天气还很凉，但从空气中你仍能嗅到春日的气息——一种万物初始皆有可能的清新感受。我在街上游荡，看见路人一张张面无表情的脸，但你知道他们心里感受到的和你没什么两样；而他们看到的也是这一张张毫无表情的脸。我想，把这个拍成一部电影倒是个不错的主意。在这世上，有多少事潜藏在表象之后，又有多少感觉我们无法同他人分享。

写作的过程进展得很快，也就几个星期时间——这可能是我最轻松的一段剧作经历。也是在那同一天，我脑海里就浮现出了这两个角色，而且老实说，我也不知道“共享梦境”这个构思究竟是从何而来。我只是想把这两个人放在一个他们无法逃避的情境中，一个他们必须做些什么来改变自己命运的情境。在这样的设置下，我只是把他们所做的事情记录下来而已。

这两个人彼此的梦被互相分享，真是个美妙的创意。这与人们对爱情的思考很像，我们总在想是否对方也有同样的感受，或者在这里，同样的梦境。

有时候你会质疑写出来的故事，会犹豫自己的选择是否正确，会想还有没有更好的方案。这么做都是为了进一步了解自己构思的初衷。这一次我几乎没有怎么更改最初的剧本——这其实挺不寻常的，我所做的就是毫无顾忌地把我想到的写出来。现在我觉得，这个故事似乎讲的是多年以前我读荣格时候的某种感受。弗洛伊德更加关注个人和个人的过去，而荣格则侧重人们潜意识的心理活动。不管乐意与否，我们实际上都将之与他人分享。当我们处在睡梦中，对自己失去绝对控制的时候，你会无比接近自己的，怎么说，心灵吧。因此，梦境有时确实是非常私人的体验，但与此同时，也正是在这些瞬间，你会毫无保留地把自己袒露给他人，这和你在白天里与别人的交往是完全不同的。而这，也正是这部影片所要关注的主题。

这对Maria来说似乎尤其重要，因为平日里的她有交流障碍，你会感觉到她总是不停地去揣摩和分析周围的环境——这一定非常耗费精神。但也正是通过这种方式，她与别人开始建立起联系。

是的，正是这样。

Maria这个角色是从何而来呢？

说实话，我并没有花过多时间精力去“捏造”这两个人物形象。他们在一开始就完整地“出现”在我面前，非常饱满，让我感觉到我似乎已经认识他们很久了。当然，Maria的很多特质也是我自己的一部分，她与周围世界建立起联系的方式某种程度上也是我与外界一点一点熟悉起来的方式。比如说，在我生下孩子之后，我开始学游泳，学骑自行车，只是为了能和孩子们更长时间地在一起。通过这样，我感到自己过上了一种更广阔的生活，和小时候相比，我开始更多与外界接触，你知道孩提时代的我只会呆在家里读书。

好像我有时候也像那个样子……

对，世界上总会有这样的人。说到Endre，我对他也有一样的感触，在他身上看到的其实也是很多非常成功出色男人所曾经历的：当他们衰老的时候，或是体质变弱的时候，他们周围的人开始排挤他，倒不一定是还击。Endre的形象在我脑海里一直很清晰，有一次在西班牙，我在斗牛场看见一头公牛，浑身布满了尘土，脖子上被刀尖刺出了鲜血，双眼已经模糊，但它依然保持着对周围的警惕，并想要尝试再次直起身躯，即使死亡也不能失去尊严。这就是Endre给我们传递的，他曾说：“好吧，我真是个傻瓜，但我只想继续活着，即便存在各种风险。”如果说Maria的风险来自于未知，那么对于Endre来说，风险来自他太了解这种危险的爱情，它的结局会是怎样，它会给双方带来多少伤害，而它又如何会让我们的人生变得一文不值。

这同时让我想到这部影片与“身体”密不可分，两个人工作的地方，也有很多动物的躯体。而且这部影片的名字，《肉与灵》，似乎也在提示我们，其实每个人都是血肉鲜活的，Maria和Endre在刚接触的时候都非常拘谨，但他们也与此同时渐渐展现了自己更鲜活的一面。

是的，是的，肉与灵不是两个互不关联的存在，它们互相融合，难分彼此。至少我选择在屠宰场拍摄这个故事的用意就在这里，当我把镜头聚焦到那些动物美妙的躯体，夸张的面庞的时候，当我看到它们身体的时候，我想到的其实是心灵。那些血腥的镜头并不是要去描写杀戮，而是死亡，一个如此复杂的生物就这样死去。屠宰过程中那些更血腥的镜头我没有在影片中展示，比如一头牛被切割成两半，巨大的牛肚暴露出来，那实在是很恐怖很吓人，这也不是影片想要关注的。我只想把屠宰这个戏剧化的过程清晰地呈现出来，并以此唤起某种共情。

其实，当Maria向别人袒露自己的心灵的时候，她是通过身体的活动来实现的——学习去触摸，学会接受触摸，感受芳草在指尖滑动，和太阳光照在她皮肤上的某种力量。心灵的放开正是通过身体的体验来实现。

你在这部电影中对光线，阴影，和节奏的选择，让观众切身感受到了一种难以言说的美。影片舒缓的剪辑让人感到很平静，你能谈一谈在剪辑过程中你是怎样为这部影片铺设节奏的吗？

你能想到这个让我非常高兴。时间和节奏是很重要的，它对影片的戏剧和美学内核有着很大的影响。举个例子，在影片结尾，对我来说很重要的一点便是不要刻意加快节奏，也不要刻意放缓，或者变得更戏剧化，我只想把事件按部就班地拍出来，带着一种不可逆转，义无反顾，却又异常平和的平稳，Maria回到家，洗盘子，从阳台上把衣服收回来……所以，我并不想把自己的任何情绪掺杂在这些镜头里，因为只有这样你才会更加关注Maria本身，关注那些个瞬间本身。我有一个非常棒的合作者，剪辑师Karoly Szalai，但我也想要强调这个制作团队里的每一名成员都非常在意这些细节，因为他们深深理解，每一个细微之处——甚至衣服的颜色——都对这部影片非常重要。这并不是说我们想要创造出某种形式或者风格，而是这部影片里的每一个音画元素都对其意义至关重要。

我注意到每隔几个画面就有红色的出现，这真是一种特别的串联方式。

是的。这确实是我们的初衷，但与此同时我们又不想把它呈现得过于刻意和明显，因为那样的话，就变成导演自己而不是影片中的角色在于观众对话了——这不是我想要的。所以与制作团队通力合作，把这样的想法实现是一件困难而有趣的事情，我们仔细地做出选择，因为哪怕有一点太过明显或做作，它就会毁掉整部影片。我真的很想藏在幕后，参与制作这部影片的每一个人也想要如此，想要让电影本身去与观众交流。有时候，真的就是一点点细微的区别就决定了这部电影是否带有过多作者的痕迹。

你能谈一谈两位主演员吗？你是怎么挑到他们来出演这两个角色的呢？

对于Endre，我想找一位富有吸引力的男子，但同时又被岁月所侵蚀，因此再次面对爱情会冒着极大的风险。如果你找一个四十岁左右的男人，你会说：“好吧，这次感情没有开花结果，没关系，还有下一次。”但是对他来说却是实实在在的挑战：“我应该再一次退缩，还是冒着风险尝试一次呢？”我认识所有这个年龄段的匈牙利男演员，而且有些还很不错，但是我知道他们不是我想要刻画出的Endre。于是一开始我就从业余演员中寻找，他是一名业余演员，在他接受之后我没有试镜其他人，我很高兴他能来出演。

他之前有过剧场表演经历吗？或者其他相关的经历？

没有，没有任何经历。他是匈牙利最大一家出版社的经理，完全不同的背景，并且也很腼腆。在拍摄过程中他十分专注，对他来说连续工作十二个小时可不是件容易的事。我对此很感激。而对于Alexandra——对了，我很高兴她获得了欧洲电影学院颁发的最佳女演员奖——这是她第一部作为主演的影片。她在此之前是一位相当有名和有实力的戏剧演员，但是性格上和Maria相去甚远。我们花了一个半月的时间去在她身上寻找Maria的特征，看到她最终呈现出这个角色真是件神奇的事情，你会惊叹一位好演员是如何把自己变成了另外一个人，就像蚕蛹破茧成蝶一样。对Maria的试镜过程花了五个月之久，我们面试了很多优秀的演员，很多人也十分有天赋，但是没有一个能做到她最后做到的。实话说，我也不知道自己究竟想要一个怎样的演员出演Maria，就在几个月之前，在一次问答环节中我才意识到，她所呈现的是脆弱和强大的合二为一，不是先脆弱后强大，而是同时和合二为一。

她仅凭双眼就传递了很多精彩的表演。

是的。这是因为当她在自己身上找到Maria之后，我便没有必要再告诉她要怎么做，自那以后她不再去“尝试”，因为她已经“成为”了Maria。

你知道一部电影叫《旺达》吗？芭芭拉·洛登拍的。那里面有几个镜头很像她。

是吗？《旺达》是么？我会去查查看，我喜欢去搜罗好电影。

是的。那部电影很不错。我同时也想到了日本电影，尤其是当我看到电影里的两个人试图去理解他们各自的孤独，并尝试改变自身处境的时候。

你知道么，有趣的是这部电影在东亚地区——像中国，韩国，日本——备受欢迎，而且不仅是欢迎，而是那里的观众似乎更加读得懂这部影片。所有的放映，所有的观众问答环节，都让我感觉到这部影片似乎就是为他们而拍的。有一次在香港，我告诉我的摄影师，有人说这部电影让他们想到了王家卫的《花样年华》。我跟他说，这部电影就应该跟《花样年华》那样，表面看上去毫无波澜，但藏在下面的却是满满的激情，危险，和渴望。我们需要用不同的视觉手段去营造这样的氛围。我很高兴在香港见到了王家卫本人。他也很喜欢这部电影。

说到电影节和颁奖，我注意到你的摄影师Mate Herbai刚被美国摄影师协会提名。

他获得了Cameraimage的金蛙奖，他还很年轻所以在得知获奖的时候还相当惊讶。我很为他高兴。

我能问一问你现在正在创作什么作品吗，或者正在构思哪些新的作品？

是的，我现在手头上有两个项目。一个还在准备阶段，谁知道最终会变成什么呢，在第一天开机之前你永远不知道接下来会发生什么。而另一个剧本已经完成了一半，那个作品很贴近我自己的内心，名字叫做《沉默的朋友》（Silent Friend）。那会是一部德语作品，而主角是一棵树。

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Museum of the Moving Image’s Introduction on Le Bonheur: In Varda’s exquisitely colorful movie, a seemingly happy married carpenter takes a mistress. Though set in bucolic landscapes and filmed with a vividly stylized and vibrant palette, Le Bonheur is sharply analytical beneath its sunny exterior, as disturbing as it is beautiful. Describing the film, Varda said “I imagined a summer peach with its perfect colors, and inside there is a worm.”

BAM’s Introduction on Lynne Ramsay’s Retrospective Series: Through her complex layering of sound and visuals, transformative use of pop music, and knack for capturing lightning-in-a-bottle performances, Ramsay creates senses-shattering spectacles of hallucinatory beauty and raw psychological power.

New Directors New Films 2018’s Introduction on An Elephant Sitting Still: Sure to be remembered as a landmark in Chinese cinema, this intensely felt epic marks a career cut tragically short: its debut director Hu Bo took his own life last October, at the age of 29. The protagonist of this modern reworking of the tale of Jason and the Argonauts is teenage Wei Bu, who critically injures a school bully by accident. Over a single, eventful day, he crosses paths with a classmate, an elderly neighbor, and the bully’s older brother, all of them bearing their own individual burdens, and all drawn as if by gravity to the city of Manzhouli, where a mythical elephant is said to sit, indifferent to a cruel world. Full of moody close-ups and virtuosic tracking shots, An Elephant Sitting Still is nothing short of a masterpiece.

Introduction

• One major subject: the Japanese family; one major theme: its dissolution – family members moving apart; two main extensions: the school and the office
• “The father or mother sitting alone in the now empty house is an image common enough in Ozu’s films … … These people are no longer themselves. We know they will somehow survive, but we also know at what cost … … The reason they impel our sympathy is that they are neither victims of their own flaws, nor the prey of a badly organized society; they are the casualties of things as they are, the way that life is.”
• Only in early films [he] emphasized the external social conditions; in later films the director found more important the constraints on human conditions; The more pleasant bourgeois life is “no less real”; Ozu abandoned the idea that unhappiness is caused solely by social wrongs
• Ozu story is a pretext: “It is not the story that Ozu wants to show so much as the way his characters react to what happens in the story, and what patterns these relations create.”
• The technique: highly restricted; the titles: similar; same actor in the same kind of role, [also] same story line in various films; activities: also consistent; and [Ozu’s] liking for trains – a vehicle of mystery and change; photograph for nostalgia, [while] death is simple absence
• There is no such thing as Human Nature, only individual men and women – “By so restricting our view and confining our interest, Ozu allows us to comprehend the greatest angle aesthetic paradox: less always means more … … the several invariably indicates the many; restriction results in amplification; endless variety is found within the single entity.”

Script

a)  Plot and Characters

• Light story lines, rendered even slighter by its conventionality – marriage and death are the only conclusions
• Ozu’s method resembled that of directors of animated films or musical comedies who construct their film around a finished sound track. One result of this method was the creation of characters that in no way depended upon the convolutions of plot or story.
• “The character became real with no reference to story or plot; he became real because all the words he spoke gave expression to those principles of his character which it was the writers’ duty to discover.”
• Heightened realism: the characters say just what they would say, yet the dialogue continually surprises because it is always unfolding facets of the character that we were hitherto unaware of
• Ozu disliked plot: his curiosity and interest in people so great, that he denied himself the undoubted convenience of story, plot, and conventional dialogue … … The resultant lovability of [his] character, … … is based on his perfect freedom and consequent fullness
• In the Ozu script no character description beyond simple indication is given; instead lines of dialogues that carry their own inflections. “The viewer of an Ozu film is expected to infer the characters’ feelings, and usually the dialogue is so beautifully written that reasonably attentive viewers do just that, whether consciously or not. … … in the films of Bresson and the earlier pictures of Antonioni, though, thoughts and feelings are so lightly implied that we must infer most of the motivation. The same is true of the Ozu films; as in the middle novels of Henry James, we are shown everything and told nothing.“

b)  Humor, Parallel, and Inconsistency

• Humor: formed by logical incongruities; repeating jokes, repeating character traits, led naturally to the formation of character
• In the Ozu film there is often a minor motif running parallel to the main theme or story, and to an extent, both presaging and sustaining it: 1) The variations may be presented as contrasting with each other, or one variation may continue another. 2) More often, however, the parallels running side by side do not meet and stretch into infinity. 3) Sometimes, Ozu’s parallels are purely pictorial – the same scene is shown again and again, its presence supporting the theme of the film. 4) The most satisfying parallels are the few that are readily recognizable which fit the film and amplify it but whose connection with the main theme remains elusive (e.g. in An Autumn Afternoon, the old-time war song)
• “Parallelism was the mainstay of Ozu’s method of film construction because it enables him to show what he wanted without telling us what we should be thinking and feeling.”
• There is nowhere in [Ozu’s] work a scene of which the real, intended meaning is contrary to the one seemingly expressed. “Rather, a character reveals his belief to be the contrary of those he expresses, or maintains a belief different from the one reality quite apparently imposes. In Ozu’s work, such self-deception is, as the father in Equinox Flowers plainly states, proof of humanity.“

c)  Irony, Mono no aware, and Surprise

• Ozu’s irony makes us want to move closer to [those] very warm and human people, [contrary to] the traditional functions of irony ([makes] wholesale empathy impossible). Many of the ironies are neither explained nor exploited. Our detachment reveals a design of which the characters are unaware
• Mono no aware (“sympathetic sadness”): a serene acceptance of a transient world, a gentle pleasure found in mundane pursuits soon to vanish. “Ozu’s characters are all without pasts and only very occasionally and indirectly suffer because of some past action of lack of one. But the present matters because it is all we have. One should … … not bemoan its gradual disappearance because that is the way things are … …”
• Ability to contemplate; silent contemplation; long still shots of characters simply existing; a scene of simple savoring of the moment; appreciation of the weather ([so that] our thoughts are soothed and our spirits renewed)
• “Ozu’s films are made of so little, his characters composed of so apparently few “traits”, … … He rarely gives his characters any identifying props, and yet they surprise.”
• Ozu’s characters often display opposite extremes of emotion; beneath every one of the emotions we normally show, there lies its opposite. “When such concealed emotions, powerful and long denied, break out, they show — no matter who we are — how akin we are to everyone else.”

d)  Moralist and Artist; Life and Choice

• The message of Ozu’s film, is, perhaps, that one is happiest living in accord with one’s own imperfections include aging, dying, and other calamities .- seen in this light, Ozu was a truly moral man … … He was also an artist, and thus expressed his moral views only indirectly
• In Ozu’s universe there is no afterlife, [and his] view of life is not, indeed a comforting one. “Most of Ozu’s films are about parents and children, all of whom suffer a degree of disappointment … … This disappointment is built into the human condition, as many an Ozu character learns during the course of the picture. They begin by hoping that all will be well, that things will turn out as they wish; they often end by consoling themselves that at least they have suffered less than others they know.”
• “Loneliness and death are in a sense such banal facts of human experience that only a great artist,  a Tolstoy, a Dickens, an Ozu, can restore to them something of the urgency and sadness that we all someday experience … … Ozu is one of the very few artists whose characters are aware of the great immutable laws that govern their lives.”
• Choice is important to all of Ozu’s people: you are what you do, and nothing more or less; the sum total of your choices, your actions, is the sum total of yourself. Here, perhaps, is the reason why Ozu’s characters have no past (Ozu never once in his entire career used a flashback) – what is important is not what life has done to them, but what they do with what life has done to them. Then, one understands Ozu’s dislike and distrust of plot … … one understands also why inconsistency of character is so important to Ozu: it is a sign of life because it is a sign of choice

Shooting

a) Camera Movement and Angle

• Ozu’s later films [make me] think harder and feel more, and hence [my] experience is the deeper. In the circumstances we must supply the emotional direction ourselves, and doing so heightens our emotional involvement, brings us closer than we can be when our reactions have been foreseen and foreordained … … we think more, but it does not follow that we felt less
• Ozu relinquished most of the grammatical elements of cinema: he did not want to express himself in a direct way; he refused elements of film grammar because they express conventionalized opinion
• The low camera angle made it possible to sharply delineate the various surfaces of the image and to accentuate the one occupied by the actors; [It] has the effect of creating a stage upon which the characters are seen to best advantage

b) Appreciation of the Present Moment

• We are obliged to watch the entire selection when the Ozu character performs. Ozu would have us listen to the whole long song not only out of a sense of politeness, but for its own sake, out of a sense of pleasure; (Zen) when one does something one does noting else; the present moment is immortalized [in the scene at the end of Late Spring]: “As we watch the skin fall away, it is the concentration on the present we appreciate and, if we are like Ozu, admire. It is when the hands stop moving, the knife remains poised, the peeling remains unfinished, it is when the father looks up with vacant eyes, that we know he is, after all, like us — that the present is now lost in the future with its hopes and its fears, that he is feeling his loneliness.”

c) Composition and Symbols

• Ozu was interested in composition within the single shot, [instead of] harmonizing the composition of succeeding shots; [he] worked to create the kine of geometry necessary to satisfy his sense of beauty
• [Ozu’s] compositions, like most Japanese pictorial compositions, are the main horizontal. Such compositions suggest the known, the content, even the serene. Vertical and diagonal compositions, by contrast, suggest striving, the unknown, even the discontent. The invariable low horizon of the Ozu film helps create the accepting atmosphere of these pictures
• The vase in Late Spring: it is the pretext for an amount of elapsed time; it is something to watch during the period in which the feeling of the daughter change … … “In being shown only the vase during the crucial seconds when she comes near tears, we are put into the position of having to imagine her feelings. Although we do not necessarily imagine that she will be near tears when we next see her, the vase has occupied our attention while we were occupied with her feelings, and we consequently accept her feelings, no matter what they are.”

d) Acting and Directing

• In most of his mature films, Ozu demanded not emblematic gestures, but a wide though restricted range of actions that would achieve the desired effect. [Ryu]: “Ozu told me to stare at the end of my chopsticks and then stare at my hand and then speak to my child. The simple act of doing these things in that order conveyed a certain feeling. Ozu did not explain the feeling; the actions came first. He told me what to do and let me discover the feeling.”
• Just as he remained relatively uninterested in the changing social conditions of his country, [Ozu] is uninterested in a naturalistic picture of his people. He is interested, precisely, in the known, mundane, and certain society, that can provide a frame or his observations on life, death, and other imponderables … … “For this reason, perhaps, almost all the characters in an Ozu film already know one another before the film begins.”
• The underlying assumption of an Ozu film is that a person is always in control of himself … … “We are not allowed that vicarious and easy pleasure of knowing more about the character than he himself does … … given this kine of character delineation, the whole question of fault never rises.“

Editing

a) Form and Transition

• As we have seen, Ozu did not want to interpret; he wanted to present; for him there was only one way of editing – following the script. He followed it carefully and undeviatingly because the impact of his film depended on his realizing previously calculated effects, mainly those concerned with form and tempo
• Circular form: life has revolved, and we are back where we started but with a difference (see Tokyo Story). Showing us this difference is the purpose of the film … …
• Transition: usually indicated by two shots; the first shows an outside view of the place we have just been, the second an outside view of the place we are going. Other methods include [showing] only what the characters are experiencing, [which] appears both logical and natural; [using] objects as transitional devices, like the bicycle in A Story of Floating Weeds
• Ozu’s still lifes and otherwise empty scenes become containers for our emotions. Empathy is not the key here. Primary to the experience is that in these scenes (like the vase in Late Spring) empty of all but mu, we suddenly apprehend what the film has been about, i.e., we suddenly apprehend life. “…. … Ozu has ensured that we sense something larger than the emotion we are both seeing and feeling, that at the same time we become aware of the universality of all emotion — in short that we feel something of the texture of life itself and again know that we are part of this universal fabric. Empathy is thus transformed into an appreciation, and experience into personal expression.”
• Schrader: [the shot of the vase (a long one, lasting some ten seconds)] “can accept deep, contradictory emotion and transform it into an expression of something unified, permanent, transcendent.”

b) Tempo and Sequence

• Indeed there is a question whether Ozu “knew” what he was doing … … The long close-up of the vase is not in the original script for that picture. Its proper length and position were something that became apparent only during the course of creating the film … … Certainly, his editing methods were largely a matter of “feeling”
• Ozu usually continued [conversation scenes] past the point of silence, letting the camera run after conversation stops … … This gives an air of importance, of weight, to almost any conversation
• The Noh drama scene in Late Spring: it would have been made rapidly, and we would then be rushed to the next sequence. [However,] Ozu has added shot after shot as a painter would apply brush strokes, each one contributing to the final impression … … In doing so, he created a feeling of actuality, … … and he took the amount of time we needed both to be convinced of what was happening and to apprehend the event’s emotional effects on father and daughter
• The visual form of the Ozu sequence is the binary a-b-a, so the temporal form of the sequence is slow-fast-slow. “All aspects of an Ozu film, then, dialogue, scene, sequence, sound, were patterned; they were module-like units … … One reason Ozu can successfully impose such a pattern upon his material, can do so, that is, without falsifying, is that the sequence pattern is not the story pattern … … The higher authority in Ozu’s picture is the unvarying structure of the film itself, and not, as in most films, story or plot.”
• “Certainly the immediacy of the Byzantine mosaic portraits is occasioned in part by the rigor and sameness of their patterns; certainly much of the joy of a Bach fugue is caused by the inflexible rules of fugue-writing itself, just as part of the magical realism of a Vermeer interior is attributable to the rigid geometrical composition. Or, better,  perhaps all this life and joy and recognizable realism results from the overcoming of various rules and patterns. Perhaps it is restriction that creates amplitude; perhaps less always means more.”

Conclusion

• “While working with completely traditional material and using traditional means, Ozu has had the energy and insight to prevent the formal from becoming formalistic, the form from becoming empty, and the spirit from becoming the mere letter … … Ozu’s characters have a validity beyond their role in the film. It is possible for us to imagine them continuing their lives. Indeed, it is impossible for us not to. Having spend a few hours with them, we find that we do not want to leave them. We have come to understand and consequently to love them. And with this understanding we come to know more about ourselves, and, with that, more about life.”

Interview and translation by Yonca Talu

原文刊载于《Film Comment》2018年第一期

借助极具戏剧化的镜头语言，你在《一日情人》的一上来就交代了女主角“被甩”这一事实。

这世上有两种导演：一些想着如何影响观众，另一些永远遵从自己主张，而我属于第二种。我在从影初期只为自己拍电影，其实这在当时是有些被人看不起的。我认为直觉在创作过程中极为重要，而你说的这段开幕戏就源自于两段我个人的亲身经历。Ariane和Gilles做爱的场景来自我的一个梦，而Jeanne在街角痛哭并回到父亲家里则是现实中发生的一件事：有一天晚上，我听见一个女孩在我窗外哭泣，我看着她后来穿过街巷并最终消失在黑夜里。当时我就觉得这是一个非常撼人的瞬间，因为谁都可以立刻想到，她被甩了。

这部电影的细腻和敏感让我联想到西蒙·波伏娃的文字，尤其是她同样以“三人组合”为背景的小说《女宾》。

我只读过波伏娃的回忆录，但是自从拍摄《女人的阴影》之后，很多人开始问我是否拍的是一部女权主义电影。其实我只想如实地记录和研习女性的行为。在内心深处，我相信男人和女人在任何角度都是平等的，但我同样认为，当我们站在自己的角度去理解对方的时候，总还是有诸多未知。我试图通过这部电影去进一步了解女性，你看和我合作的是一位女剧作家，在选材过程中我也采纳了很多自己未必了解但同样感觉到真实的女性的故事。

你认为让-克劳德·卡里埃尔在《白日美人》和《朦胧的欲望》中刻画出的女性欲望对你拍摄这部电影有帮助 吗？

当然。与卡里埃尔合作让我认识到，布努埃尔的晚期作品的确深受其影响。

Gilles曾对Ariane说过一句非常感人却又残忍的话：“我不惧怕死亡，但我想和那个我爱并且也爱着我的女人一起变老。”这句话因柔情而感人，但想到让一个年轻女孩放下所有对余生的幻想，又不觉有些残忍。

我们拍摄这部电影的时候，Louise Chevillotte才二十岁，而Eric Caravaca已经五十了，这是因为我想要在电影中展现这种年龄差。我对自己说：“如果你能把一个年轻女孩和一个比她大三十岁的男人的故事真实地拍出来，并且不让人感觉到不适，那你就成功了。”比如拿库布里克的《洛丽塔》做例子，我觉得James Mason和那位年轻女演员（Sue Lyon）什么都做到了，但唯独没让观众觉得他们是真实地生活在一起。我难以想象他们俩在床上是怎样的情形，但是在这里，当Gilles和Ariane上床的时候，你会觉得十分自然。

Gilles在一次晚餐中和学生谈到了阿尔及尔之战，这又是一个你电影中把日常生活和政治结合在一起的例子。

我有意把政治嵌套在我的电影中，反抗当代电影的“去政治化”。在我写《平凡情人》的时候，因为影片是关于“五月风暴”的，我在筹集资金时遇到了不少困难。我认为，电影是资本主义的产物，也是为资本主义而拍的——那么一部讲述革命的影片无疑在资本家眼中是“自杀”。那些没有经历过“五月风暴”的人们永远不会意识到，有多少事实和真相被无情地掩埋了。

几乎没有一部关于“五月风暴”的电影。

是的，这就像没有关于阿尔及尔之战的电影一样。通过《平凡情人》，我认识到在资本主义的体制里拍一部“反资本主义”的电影是不可能的。但我的电影中还是有一些关于那个时代的痕迹：我父亲在二战时是“自由法国力量”的成员，当我还是个孩子的时候，我看到我的父母支持阿尔及利亚人民的抵抗，当然还有六八年的“五月风暴”，那个时候我已经二十岁，并投身其中。然而，其实我并没有高涨的政治热情，也没有想要重现历史事件，我只想通过电影去探讨政治在人们当今生活中的角色。

你认为法国当代电影有某种“政治棱角”吗？

没有。但追溯到阿贝尔·冈斯的那个年代，法国电影是真正流淌着政治血液的。对我来说，从拍摄“地下电影”到给发行商拍片已经是一个很大的转变，而在这过程中不忘初心是很重要的。每当我说我只为创作和剪辑过程中给自己带来的愉悦而拍电影，不为发行而拍，这都源自于当年拍摄“地下电影”时的经历。我的电影来自于我对法国“新浪潮”的观察和我在“地下运动”中的亲身体验。

《追寻》这部电影是对“五月风暴”的一种政治上的呼应吗？

在“五月风暴”初期，有很多关于“景观概念”和“情境主义”的批评，所以当运动失败的时候，毫无疑问参与了这个运动的人们会把个人的记忆转化为情境，这也是为什么我想要在《追寻》中把背景设置在那个历史转折中的一个贫困家庭。在上世纪九十年代和本世纪初，“五月风暴”遭受了很多人的批评，因为人们认为它是当今社会混乱的根源。因此我认为，如果那些经历了当年运动的人们不能记录下他们的所见所闻，那么这种误解会持续更久。从某种意义上说，《平凡情人》是对“五月风暴”的澄清，而《追寻》则是对其后果的复原。

在《一日情人》中有哪些自传的因素？

由我女儿来饰演Jeanne是这部电影中唯一自传的因素。她和她的哥哥都是演员，但是她的经验相对来说更少一些，所以在拍摄过程中我把自己的家庭经历与故事有机地捏合在了一起。结果便是，这部电影既是艺术的表达，也是对个人生活的某种回应。至于说自传是不是艺术，这个问题不太好回答，因为当你渐渐变老，你的作品自然会变得越来越具有自传色彩。但是与此同时，你也与真正的自传渐行渐远:：你会有意省略人物和事件的细节，进而关注人类普遍的感受和行为。《平凡情人》是关于一个我年轻时参与过的一个帮派，但并不是里面的所有角色都是我经历的再现，但这些人物叠加在一起，所呈现的就是我所经历过的那段生活。因此，自传作品可以帮助你衡量虚构作品的“真实性”，这就好像把小说放在“现实的天平”上，去称一称它的分量。

你的电影中往往关注人们的肢体语言，比如《追寻》里面实验性的手势，《日常情人》和《一日情人》里面仔细编排的舞蹈段落。吉尔·德勒兹把你电影中的这些段落称之为“身体的电影”。

我其实从来不知道德勒兹眼中的“身体的电影”究竟是什么，而其实这些也都不是有意而为之。作为两位演员的儿子，我觉得我对演员的“客观物理存在”极为敏感，并也在拍摄过程中这样要求我的演员们。在任何情况下，电影本身并不能满足我，我同样喜爱绘画和舞蹈，所以我认为自己更是一个艺术家而非仅仅是一名导演。把电影和其他艺术形式糅合在一起对我来说不是问题。当我拍片的时候，我感觉自己就好像是拿着草稿本去画画，去描绘那些角色在特定情况下的反应和情形。那些只对电影感兴趣的人们让我难以理解：一直生活在虚构中的生活是多么令人不安啊。在开拍电影之前，我总会去一下博物馆去寻找灵感，而在拍摄过程中，我会把摄像机想象成画笔。在任何历史面前，艺术总会战胜一切的——身为一个无神论者，艺术就是我的信仰。电影对我来说是一种艺术形式，而非大众现象。如今我的电影还算有些受众，但并不是所有情况下都如此。作为戈达尔的门徒，我永远不惧怕失败，因为我曾经目睹了这位影史上最伟大的导演之一是如何被媒体嘲讽和批评的。《一日情人》是我第二十五部作品，也是自2005年的《日常情人》之后第一部还算有些观众的影片。

在你生涯初期你会组织小规模的私人放映吗？

有时候会。但是在很长一段时间里，我的电影都是在巴黎亨利·朗格卢瓦的电影馆里放映。六十年代末时候的我只会在乎在那个电影馆里放映的场次，在那里放映结束之后，我就会“鸣金收工”，并开始考虑下一部作品。事实上，特吕弗曾说：“菲利普的电影可惜就可惜在，它总是从“实验室的摇篮”直接钻进巴黎电影馆的“墓地”里，至少应该被发行啊！”但是，从上世纪六十年代末到九十年代，也正是因为出展于世界各地的电影馆，我的电影才为那些“迷影”观众所知，并最终登上了威尼斯电影节的舞台。

回头来看，你怎样看待你的电影从最初的实验风格到现在的叙事风格这一转变？

直到1979年《秘密的孩子》之前，我从不给我的影片写剧本。通常，一部电影只有一个题目，其余的全部来自即兴自由发挥。七十年代末期，“地下运动”渐进尾声，因此我就想：“我要怎么办呢？”于是我就决定开始写剧本，因为这是完全不同的另一种创作模式——这一类“新电影”以故事为依托。在那个时候，我没有制片人的支持，实际上我自己就是我的电影的制片人。放在今天来看，很难想象哪个制片方会发行一部没有剧本的电影。换句话说，想让商业电影销声匿迹是不现实的，因为那样的话整个电影工业包括“作者电影”都会一并消亡。法国电影对我来说极好的一点是它艺术性的一面，即便我再喜欢某些美国电影，我也不曾想过要以那样一种方式拍电影。

举个例子，我第一部在美国发行的电影是我的第一部片子，1968年的《玛丽为了回忆》，这部电影我卖给了环球影业的一个子机构，叫作环球教育与视觉艺术，这个机构主要是把买来的电影在全美各大院校播放。可是没想到，它们把这部片子重新剪了一遍：最后的版本少了整整25分钟，并且幕与幕之间的顺序也被重新整理过了。对于一个像我这样把电影视为艺术的人来说，这就像从一个画家手里买画，然后用锯子把所有你不喜欢的部分给裁掉。在法国，导演对成片有最终的裁定权，我认为这一点是极为重要的。我宁愿为了这份自由挣十分之一的钱，屈就于审查在我这里是行不通的。

你有接到过来自美国的邀约吗？

有一次。那还是在七十年代，我还非常穷。有一天我收到来自Cannon集团的一封信，那家公司由一对以色列兄弟经营。他们在信里说，我是一位有影响力的导演，他们想邀请我制作一部属于我自己的影片，并与卡索维茨和戈达尔的片子一同发行。我当时想，好啊，他们原来还想制作一部属于我自己的影片，想罢我便把那封信给扔掉了。过了几年，我看到那两兄弟发行了《爱的激流》和戈达尔的《李尔王》，这才意识到，原来他们不是骗子。这是我唯一一次收到来自国外的片约，但是当我看到他们声称要制作一部属于我自己的影片的时候，我仍旧感觉到这个说法太奇怪了，所以终究未能成行。

你会认为《炎炎夏日》沿袭了安东尼奥尼的风格而最近的三部曲更像伯格曼吗？

戈达尔曾说，自1999年与凯瑟琳·德纳芙合作的《夜风》之后，我开始摒弃他之于我的影响，并由此转向安东尼奥尼。但那不是有意而为之的。不管如何，安东尼奥尼对我来说很重要。我最敬仰的导演有四位：戈达尔，特吕弗，伯格曼，和安东尼奥尼。

但是安东尼奥尼本人对戈达尔并不是特别感冒。

安东尼奥尼在现代主义这条道路上比戈达尔要超前许多，但某种程度上，他们作为现代电影史上的两位巨匠，彼此也是互相认可的。这些年来，很多其他伟大的导演也对我产生了深刻影响，比如塔可夫斯基和布列松。但是当我拍片子的时候，我并不去想别的导演。除了特有的工作方式之外，作为观众我也有自己的准则：我家里没有电视，我只在电影院看电影，并且与看新片子相比，我更乐意重看老片。对于新片子，我只挑那些自己崇敬的导演拍的，像阿诺·德斯普里钦，莱奥·卡拉克斯，阿布戴·柯西胥。在拍电影的时候，我的思绪与那些我在电影院看了不下十遍的伯格曼的作品同在，这对我如何构图，选景和拍摄无疑影响深刻。我不喜欢看一般的片子，因为这样的话我就会迁怒于电影本身。我喜欢看那些比我拍出来的电影要好上千八百倍的作品，因为这样我才会感受到活着的意义，并由衷称赞电影之伟大。除此之外，让我始终难以理解的一件事是，那些总是守在电视荧幕面前的导演们究竟是怎样拍出好电影的。

很多导演都沉迷于复制和重现其他导演作品里的影像。

这其实就是学院派。换句话说，电影并不是纯粹从生活中来，因为每一部电影都是对已有电影作品的回应。相比于生活，其实更是电影作品本身让电影这门艺术永葆活力。

《归航》

……我在沦亡的故国山中，万一同老人追怀及少年时代的情人一般，有追思到日本的风物的时候，那时候我就可拿出几本描写日本的风俗人情的书来赏玩。这书若是日本人所著，他的描写，必至过于真确，那时候我的追寻远地的梦幻心境，倒反要被那真实粗暴的形象所打破。

《还乡记》

走下了城，踏上清冷的长街，暮色已经弥漫在市上了。各家的稀淡的灯光，比数刻前增加了一倍势力。清泰门直街上的行人的影子，一个一个从散射在街上的电灯光里闪过，现出一种日暮的情调来。天气虽还不曾大热，然而有几家却早把小桌子摆在门前，露天的在那里吃晚饭了。我真成了一个孤独的异乡人，光了两眼，尽在这日暮的长街上彳亍前进。

《海上通信》

名义上自然是隐士好听，实际上终究是漂流有趣。

《一封信》

我觉得艺术中间，不使人怀着恶感，对之能直接得到一种快乐的，只有几张伟大的绘画，和几段奔放的音乐，除此之外，如诗，文，小说，戏剧，和其他的一切艺术作品，都觉得肉麻得很。……

……前几个月在上海做的那一篇春夜的幻影，你们还记得么？我现在回想起来，觉得近来于无聊之极，写出来的几篇感想不象感想小说不象小说的东西里，还是这篇夏夜的幻想有些意义。不过当时的苦闷，没有现在那么强烈，所以还能用些心思在修辞结构上面。我现在知道了，真真苦闷的时候，连叹苦的文字也做不出来的。

《北国的微音》

似水的流年，过去真快，自从海船上别后，匆匆又换了年头。以岁月计算，虽则不过隔了五个足月，然而回想起来，我同你们在上海的历史，好象是隔世的生涯，去今已有几百年的样子。

《小春天气》

当半年前，每天只是忧郁的连续的时候，倒反而有一种余裕来享乐这一种忧郁，现在连快乐也享受不了的我的脆弱的身心，忽而沾染了这一层虽则是很淡很淡，但也好象是很深的隐忧，只觉得坐立都是不安。……

……这时候我们已经走进了一条热闹的横街，两人各雇着洋车，分手回来的时候，上弦的新月，也已经来得很高了。我一个人摇来摇去的被拉回家来，路上经过了许多无人来往的乌黑的僻巷。僻巷的空地道上，纵横倒在那里的，只是些房屋和电杆的黑影。从灯火辉煌的大街，忽而转入这样僻静的地方的时候，谁也会发生一种奇怪的感觉出来，我在这初月微明的天盖下苍茫四顾，也忽而好象是遇见了什么似的，心里的那一种莫名其妙的忧郁，更深起来了。

《江南的冬景》

江南的地质丰腴而润泽，所以含得住热气，养得住植物；因而长江一带，芦花可以到冬至而不败，红叶亦有时候会保持得三个月以上的生命。……若遇到风和日暖的午后，你一个人肯上冬郊去走走，则青天碧落之下，你不但感不到岁时的肃杀，并且还可以饱览着一种莫名其妙的含蓄在那里的生气……

《半日的游程》

大约是山中的清气，和十几里路的步行的结果吧，那一碗看起来似鼻涕，吃起来似泥沙的藕粉，竟使我们嚼出了一种意外的鲜味。等那壶龙井芽茶，冲得已无茶味，而我身边带着的一封绞盘牌也只剩了两枝的时节，觉得今天是行得特别快的那轮秋日，早就在西面的峰旁躲去了。谷里虽然掩下了一天阴影，而对面东首的山头，还映得金黄浅碧，似乎是山灵在预备去赴夜宴而铺陈着浓装的样子。我昂起了头，正在赏玩着这一幅以青天为背景的夕照的秋山，忽听见耳旁的老翁以富有抑扬的杭州土音计算着帐说：

“一茶，四碟，二粉，五千文！”

All pictures sourced from external links as Neue Galerie New York does not allow visitors to take photos. Notes from the museum audio guide.

The first president of Czechoslovakia. Setting him against the backdrop of Prague and Vltava river. Extraordinary brushwork. Shortly after Kokoschka finished this painting, the Nazi called it ‘degenerate’ and he fled to London. Tomas Masaryk died in 1937 and this painting became an elegy for this loved president.

Here beckmann portraits real people: intellectuals, politicians, and businessmen. This is an elegant party – there is singer at the background but no one pays attention.The guests don’t seem to enjoy themselves; only the couple at lower left seems to be connected to each other. The main aspect of this painting is isolation.

The style and implication of this painting would have been unacceptable to the Nazis and clearly the artist painted it for himself. Has a scientific fiction in it. The barren room, the door that goes nowhere, and the empty frame on the wall. Perhaps this an artist studio but the productivity has been totally gone.

Oelze drew a variety of sources for this unsettling composition: the use of contemporary photography, combined with traditional European landscape painting – the genuine strategy of surrealism. MoMa bought this painting in 1940.

Advertising as a Magical Institution (1952)

读写能力的退化是观众在与新媒介的互动中变得越来越被动的结果

• Literacy will become as rare as any other specialized skill, because prose was based on the power to translate picturgrams into syntactical gestures and grammatical perspectives – and these are of little interest to the ordinary person today
• The decline of literary skill is more likely connected with the passivity of modern audiences and the consequent disappearance of conversation
• The values of civilization would seem to be best created and maintained where there is a great deal of face-to-face discussion

The Comics and Culture (1953)

图像技术的到来并未伴随着与之相称的理解图像能力的提升

• Culture has during the past four hundred years been, for the most part, book-culture
• Printing fostered nationalism, … [and] proved to be a great setback for the visual and plastic arts
• In our own time technology has restored pictorial communication to a public which is completely untrained in pictorial discrimination

Inside the Five Sensorium (1961)

电视作为媒介颠覆了人们感知外界的方式，高强度高密度的信息，视觉和听觉的联动，进一步把观众的“感受力”压制到最低

• The “low intensity” or “low definition” of retinal image elicits high empathy or participation on the part of the viewer
• J.C. Carothers: people who live in an oral-aural world know none of the impersonal and detached attitudes of a visual-literate people
• TV has the power of imposing its own conventions and assumptions on the sensibilities of the viewer. It has the power of translating the Western literate back into the world of non-literate synesthesia

Cybernation and Culture (1966)

三维和图像化的信息只摘选了一个瞬间，并不能成功地描述更普遍的人类情感

• The story line as a means of organizing data has tended to disappear in many of the arts
• Sculpture does not enclose space. Neither is it contained in any space. Rather, it models or shapes space
• Georg Von Bekesy: the world of flat iconic image is a much better guide to the world of sound than three-dimensional and pictorial art [which] selects a single moment in the life of a form
• The flat iconic image gives an integral bounding line or contour that represents not one moment or one aspect of a form, but offers instead an inclusive integral pattern

Environment: The Future of an Erosion (1967)

当代的技术和媒介像周边环境一样让人不易感知到它的存在，而逝去的媒介则由环境演变成了一种艺术形式

• Every new technology creates an environment that translates the old or preceding technology into an art form
• The form of movie which once was environment[al] and invisible has been re-processed into an art form
• The artists as a maker of anti-environment becomes the enemy in society. He doesn’t seem to be very well adjusted. He does not accept the environment with all its brainwashing functions with any passivity whatever

McLuhan Looks at Fashion (1968)

在远古时代，艺术与人们的生活密切相关，具有明确的功能；而今天的学者更强调各门类艺术的专业划分以及思想独立于生活和外界环境

• Literate man [refused] to be involved in the world he lived in. He valued the isolated, delimited self, particularly the mind
• In the tribal world, art belongs to ordinary day-to-day experiences: painting lives on the body, sculpture is something you use or worship, architecture you do yourself, and literature you recite or dance
• Misako Miyamoto: The audience watches the play and catches the feeling through not only the action and words but also the intervals of the period of the pauses. There is a free creation in each person’s mind … and the audience relates to this situation with free thinking

Foreword to Harold A. Innis, Empire and Communications (1972)

现代科学更强调对因果关系的量化研究，而古希腊时代的自然科学则关注分类而非模式识别

• Since the Renaissance, science has tended increasingly to quantify cause and effect and to assign as much as possible one effect to one cause
• Greek physis or “nature” was more a system of classification than of the recognition of dynamic patterns in experience

Do Books Matter (1973)

在当今这样一个信息纷杂，人们无时不被情感和环境因素干扰的年代，书本是仅存为数不多的可以提供客观信息和超然感受的媒介

• Unlike radio and phonograph, the book does not provide an environment of information that merges with social scenes and dialogue
• Today, the printed book is the means of detachment and civilized objectivity in a world of profound sensuous involvement
• Reading and writing were assigned to slaves in ancient Greece, and it was the Romans who promoted the book to a place of dignity

The Brain and the Media: The ‘Western Hemisphere’ (1978)

现代科学和现代社会大多是由左脑支配的，更加注重线性逻辑和用理性指导活动，而非基于全然和同时的感知

• Non-literate culture are mainly oral/aural, even when they cultivate some non-phonetic form of writing such as Sanskrit
• The linearity of the left hemisphere is reinforced by a service environment of roads and transportation, and logical or rational activities in legal legislation. The dominance of the right hemisphere, on the other hand, depends upon an environment of a simultaneous resonating character, as is normal in oral societies

演员与护士

伊丽莎白是一名演员，每天面对无数虚构的场景，把虚假的感情“真实”地表达出来是她的天职。艾玛是一名护士，承担着救死扶伤的义务，而在这里，她更多需要去“拯救”的是病人心理上的阴暗和创伤。

伊丽莎白有一天在排演中突然失语，诡异的是当时舞台前并没有任何观众。她缓慢地转过身，从面向舞台到面向镜头前的我们，把郁积于她思绪中的困惑和痛苦抛给“第四面墙”背后的电影观众。沉默由此开始。对自我的审视由此开始。

艾玛出场时，双手背后笔直地站着，背后是肃穆的白墙，象征着秩序和规则。她对即将到来的工作有些忐忑，远不及对自己的个人生活前景来得有信心。这种忐忑，既源于二人身份的不对等（功成名就的演员 vs. 初出茅庐的护士），也源于她对沉默本能的抗拒——似乎冥冥之中，沉默会通向她心中那些不可告人的恶魔，和看似平静生活背后更深一层的不安。而后来的故事情节也印证了，艾玛与伊丽莎白接触的过程，正是她“卸下”护士这一身份角色的过程。

一名演员厌倦了自己身为演员，一名护士发现自己不仅是护士。

沉默与言语

电影最精彩的地方在于沉默和言语之间的交锋。这两者既二元对立，又同根同源。如果说，伊丽莎白的（有意）沉默是通过对外界生活的封锁而进一步接近自己的心灵，那艾玛的喋喋不休，又何尝不是对自我进行“碎片式”的解剖和挖底呢？两人只是借由不同的方式，在尝试感知和触及自身的灵魂。

与此同时妙就妙在，电影同样表现了沉默和言语之间的相互依附。沉默是言语的容器，而言语又让沉默变得更加舒坦和自然——两者间的交锋，某种意义上也是对彼此的滋养。试想想看，如果“信件门”没有发生，她们俩这样“一说一听”的状态其实可以一直延续下去。

但是，沉默和言语毕竟也是两种“截然不同的生物”，是两种不同的“游戏规则”。沉默是沟通让位于自我沉溺，而言语则是在呼唤人与人之间信任和坦诚。伯格曼把这两者并置在《假面》中，通过伊丽莎白和艾玛的遭遇讲述了这两者各自的局限，而且很有可能，沉默和言语在“卸下盔甲”正面交锋的时候，会带来更大的危险与灾难。

社会机器和规则

护士，言语，把它们两者组合在一起，背后即潜在的社会机器和规则。医院的意象再明显不过，而故事的全过程也可以概括成对伊丽莎白失语的“修复”。不管用何方式，有意还是无意，让伊丽莎白重新开口说话，重新回到演艺舞台，才是对她真正的“治愈”和康复。

言语在影片里表现为“击退”沉默的武器，而且这个武器相当“无情”，因为它更是对沉默的“不允许”而非善意的填充，而护士角色的纯洁和神圣身份也是对这种“治疗”方式的“正名”。同时，艾玛对生活和生育的态度也代表着一种“社会声音”，它是对伊丽莎白的教育，是对她个人生活中的“污点”的指控，也是对这属于伊丽莎白一个人自我之沉默的响亮反击。

然而，伯格曼并没有让影片停留在这单一层面上，叠加在艾玛打破伊丽莎白沉默之上的，是后者企图站在更高的视角对前者的“study”和冷眼旁观。且不说灵魂之间绝对意义上的沟通和分享是否可能，艾玛在看到信件前后的反差无疑反映了所谓真诚和沟通背后的脆弱，与由此建立起来的社会关系规则的不堪一击。

女性与母性

电影聚焦在两位女性，一位在婚姻生活面前看似信心满满，一位在婚姻生活之中其实步履维艰。艾玛早年果断地堕胎，因为她“知道”自己还没有准备好成为母亲；伊丽莎白在社会压力中生下孩子，因为她曾经仍想成为别人眼里的“合格”母亲。艾玛向伊丽莎白坦诚自己心中的恶魔，海滩上难忘的性经历是她在婚姻大门前内心最深处的踌躇；而伊丽莎白沉默的背后，则是她和儿子之间的隔断与疏离，这个恶魔也在影片后半段被无情揭开。

在影片的不同阶段，艾玛和伊丽莎白分别被推上“审判席”，接受众人目光对自己女性和母性身份的定义和评判。艾玛讲海滩经历的那一晚和她其他的倾诉过程相比显得是那么不同，场景的明暗布光，背景的船笛声，而她和伊丽莎白的距离也被拉得很开，似乎这个时候电影已经不再呈现的是她们两人之间的交流，而是艾玛面向所有人，面向群众和社会的无言审判。在这段自白中，她头一次具体地讲明自己是如何对即将到来的婚姻关系感到不安。

而电影末尾对伊丽莎白“缺乏母爱”的控诉，伯格曼极其自负地重复了两遍，分别从两个机位去描摹指控者的振振有词和被控者的惊惶错愕。但不要忘了她们二人也共享着女性和母性的身份，今天的伊丽莎白，有可能就是明天的艾玛。即便实非如此，她们各自的困惑和“过错”，犹疑和执着，都是对这重身份反思和审视。

镜子与脸庞

镜子和脸庞是《假面》中导演最着力表现的符号。电影开始小男孩想要触摸的女人脸庞，艾玛睡前擦脸时候的自白，两人在镜子前的凝视，以及在两段一模一样控诉时对两张脸的聚焦，和最后的“合体”，穿插着整个伯格曼讲故事的过程。而电影的名字“假面”也恰恰与脸庞有关。

脸既是个人身份，也是内在心理的外化表现，连通着每个人内心深处的情感。两张脸庞的相似，暗指两颗心灵在追逐背后的相互融合。在镜子面前，艾玛看着自己也看着伊丽莎白入神，幻想自己成为了与之相似的另外一个人。

与此同时，脸庞也指代面具，影片着力表现了两人各自卸下面具之后探索内心和自我的过程。但当面具被撕开，两张尽管相似的脸被生生拼凑在一起的时候，我们却感觉极其不适。或许，面具背后的“真实”原本就是这样不堪和让人后怕，因此人类太需要这样一张“假面”去面对和承担生活的重压。

电影中最惊悚的一幕，出现在艾玛差点将滚烫的热水泼向伊丽莎白的那一刻，伊丽莎白惊叫出声，尽管肉体的脸庞仍在，但沉默的“伪装”被揭穿后，等待她的是进一步的不信任和言语上的攻击。这个场景的惊悚源于更深一层的对“毁容”本身的恐惧。艾玛收住了手，伯格曼没有残忍地告诉我们脸庞尽毁之后我们还剩下什么，也许这残留的惊悚本身就是“假面”的意义吧。

 

参考：The Persistence of Persona By Thomas Elsaesser